Jack Patton and Jack Weisman Co-Champions of Ohio Valley

Posted by NSD_Update | Dec 8, 2013 | Tournament Results | 24

USA- Congratulations to Vestavia Hills’ Jack Patton and Hawken’s Jack Weisman are co-champions to win the 2013 Ohio Valley Invitational. Jack Patton is coached by Daniel Selman. Jack Weisman is coached by Bob Shurtz.

Sems

Hawken JW def. Dupont Manuel EH (Emily Hu) (Locke, *Rodriguez, Toric)

Vestavia Hills JP def. Hawken MZ ( Matthew Zhu) (*Vargason, Harkleroad, Bieyetes)

Finals

Vestavia Hills JP and. Hawken JW

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anonymus

Not only is the fact that the pool was so small ridiculous, but by looking at the results from previous years, there is a clearly visible trend. From looking at the bid lists from the last couple of years no debater that has gotten a bid at OVI has qualled. Every year someone complains and then someone else response by saying “it will get better”. Clearly it hasn’t. I am not saying that solely on the idea that the tournament had 16 debaters it should be demoted, but rather the trend of the tournament itself not being high caliber. What qualifies a tournament for some sort of “status” should be quality of judging and competitors. OVI falls short in both of those categories and will most probably continue to fall short. Maybe taking all the bids away is harsh due to the geographic location, but a semis bid is absurd.
- Jacob Nails
  
  almost* no debater has qualled.
  
  2 years ago Alex Cordover bid at Ohio Valley and Vestavia.
  https://ci.uky.edu/toc/LDqualifiers
  - Jacob Nails
    
    The year before, Devin Kasinki qualified to the TOC on an at large with a finals appearance at OVI.
  - Regan Williams
    
    Also in 2009 both finalist qualified to the TOC I realize now that this was a few years ago but still relevant.
    - Martin Sigalow
      
      I believe that was the year that I was there and they used the 50 point speaker scale and collapsed the varsity and novice divisions. Kevin Sipe certainly wasn’t bad, however.
Jacob Nails

OVI this year was very bad. It hasn’t been substantially better in years past. That said, what are the alternatives?

Simply revoking the bid isn’t an attractive option. That leaves the region with no bids. You’d have to drive 6 or so hours to get from Lexington to the next closest bid tournament.

Transferring it to a different school would be fine, but what other tournament in the region has a larger draw? At least UK has the capacity to host a bid tournament. It runs a quarters bid in policy, a massive college tournament, and of course the TOC.

Clearing 25% of the pool straight into a bid is pretty ridiculous, but given that the normal draw is 40-60 people, I’m not sure this will be a consistent trend. Demoting OVI to a finals bid wouldn’t be unjustified, but I wouldn’t be so quick to entirely remove the only 4 bids in the area.
Tillman Huett-Lassman

It is insane that other debaters have to go through 5 preliminary rounds at a tournament that breaks to triples and other debaters get broken into a bid. Not saying that there were not good debaters but 16 debaters would BARELT qualify to give state points in Texas much less bids. This tournament should no longer have a bid.
- Josh You
  
  I’d hesitate to say that it should have no bid whatsoever. Unless there’s a specific reason why the pool was and will continue to be worse than it has in the past, Ohio Valley will almost certainly have a much better pool next year due to regression to the mean and its strengthened reputation as an easy bid. Still, I think it should be demoted to finals, if only because it’s been fairly weak historically.
  - UTIL.DB8R
    
    Even finals bids have at least 50 entries, nothing can justify 16 entries for a sems bid.
    - Josh You
      
      Its not going to have 16 entries next year, even if it gets demoted to finals.
      - BenjaminKoh
        
        I think this comment assumes weaker tournaments attract more bid hunters- but I don’t think this is the case for this tournament. Given that this weekend that Ohio Valley is on every year has Princeton, Alta, and UT (which covers 3 massive circuits in and of their own- East coast, West Coast, Texas) I don’t think people would try to fight to come to this tournament- especially given that most “nat circuity judges ‘would be at these others. I’m persuaded to an extent that this tournament should keep a bid due to the geographical diversity argument- but keeping it at a sems bid where there has been a 25% bidding debaters to competitors in the pool is nonsensical.
        
        Tillman’s on point with his comparison. Princeton and UT are incredibly competitive semifinal bids. Princeton had 110 competitors, UT had 120, and Ohio Valley had 16- which is the odd one out?
      - anon94
        
        where did you buy your crystal ball? can you tell me who will win the nba finals too? you have no way of knowing that the tournament wont have 16 entries next year.
      - Josh You
        
        You could be a smartass, or you could interpret my comment in the only reasonable way, i.e. as expressing a high probability of something happening. Ohio Valley will almost certainly have >16 entries next year because it’s been much higher historically and because being perceived as an easy bid will attract more people next year.
      - Jack Weisman
        
        I’m under the impression that most debaters don’t even know about Ohio Valley, or don’t care enough about what they perceive to be a bad tournament. >16 entries is certainly likely, but enough entries to justify a semis bid would surprise me.
      - Anon999
        
        I agree. Because this year the only reason that it had such a low number of competitors was because the weather restricted many kids from going to the tournament. There was ten to fifteen drops right before the tournament because of the ice storm in the Midwest. The competition has a much better chance of being better next year as long as mother nature doesn’t stop the competition
      - BenjaminKoh
        
        I know a lot of kids dropped from Princeton due to the meningitis concern- so to an extent there’s a factor restricting travel to that tournament too. I think the difference though is that there’s still an overwhelming difference even if there were no weather restriction. If you’re right that “10-15” drops occurred due to the weather, 16-31 still isn’t close to 110 and 120.
        
        To clarify, I think this having a bid in the first place is fine and probably a good thing- but a semifinal bid should probably be given w/ a qualification as simple as more than 30 people.
        
        Additionally, I’m not denying the talent of the competitors. Of those that competed I’ve only seen Jack Patton debate, but he is talented. However, this tournament at at a semifinal bid just seems excessive.
      - Rebar Niemi
        
        OUTBREAK y’all be contagious.
      - David Joannides
        
        nope. ohio valley is a great tournament in policy debate, and this year they had a decent number of teams. in fact, there were actually LESS teams there last year in policy debate. i guess people in policy are just impervious to the weather.
Aric

This is actually not true – a finals round was not debated, so Jack and Jack were declared co-champions. Also, Jack Weisman is coached by Bob Shurtz.
- BenjaminKoh
  
  Thanks- I had some incorrect information.
  - Guest
    
    Thanks, although you might want to fix the first sentence.
    - Jack Weisman
      
      You guys can delete this comment, since I accidentally posted it twice.
  - Jack Weisman
    
    Thank you, although you might want to fix the first sentence.
Debate Justice

does anybody else think its ridiculous how a semis bid had 16 entries…

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Jack Patton and Jack Weisman Co-Champions of Ohio Valley

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